Clubbbed to death?

This post about Berlin's nightlife compared to that of Dublin's spawned a long list of replies (see the comments section if you have time). While I'll forego an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable and determine which city has a better atmosphere, something that is dependent on your own mood as well as that of others, the location, time of the evening, music being played, what type of food you ate for dinner etc, there is one statement of fact in all of this: Ireland has the most restrictive licensing laws in Europe, which are killing our small, potentially healthy electronic scene. There are no specific laws per se governing nightclubs as the last piece of legislation pertaining to licensing is archaic, brought in over 100 years ago -  say what you want about the Victorians, but they never got freaky to techno - which means that there are no defined opening and closing times for late night venues. Instead of putting clubs in an advantageous situation -  eg, if there are no hard and fast rules, then they can stay open until whenever they want to - these premises are in reality forced to operate under a piecemeal, bewildering set of exemptions and special late licences (which only allow them to open until 3am at the latest), which must be applied for each time before the courts. In other words, when most of the rest of Europe is getting ready to go out, we are being told to go home. Maybe the great atmosphere in Irish clubs is because we know that we only have a few short hours to have our fun and binge drink accordingly, but the aftermath isn't that pretty. Try getting a taxi or avoid the fights as you wade through the piss and vomit-soaked streets come closing time in Dublin or anywhere else in the country and you'll soon lose your appetite for the great atmosphere here. However, what annoys me most is the apathy toward change among those that this prohibitive situation affects most. I'm part of a small voluntary group, Give Us The Night, which is campaigning and lobbying for a change in the licensing laws. We practically had to beg people to sign our mandate which we presented to the government. In most cases, people forgot to sign the mandate, but even when they were reminded to do so, most didn't bother. Without sounding too cynical, people can complain about Ireland's stunted club scene as much as they want, but unless they make the effort to sign a petition calling for change, they've only got themselves to blame...

Comments

[tom/pipecock]

pennsylvania has some crazy liquor license laws as well, it really restricts things to a heavy degree which never really allowed our late night scene to develop in the way that scene did in chicago NYC and other places. we have the problem that things like these laws need repealed at the state level, and that will never, ever happen. so we are stuck with crap that puritans thought up (we have huge populations of amish, puritans, quakers, etc in PA) hundreds of years ago that still restrict what we can do today.

that said, you guys have it so much better in dublin than in pittsburgh ;)

[kenny]

In general i think its pointless comparing atmospheres, its a completely different environment here than say Berlin (though the sorting out of soundsystems in clubs is something that NEEDS to be done) I think its a shame that the Give us the Night campaign isn't stronger, but if people are dumb enough to not see that if we actually tried to enforce change by sheer mass of numbers we may have a fight on our hands. But until then I fear articles/posts like this are kinda pointless and sadly preaching to the converted.

[leeism]

Be careful what you wish for! Up until a couple of years ago, Brighton clubs finished serving alcohol at 1am and had to be closed by 2am. Once the licensing laws changed, we noticed that clubs still tended to empty out after 2am, because most people here just aren't used to drinking any later. The venue I promote at is allowed to stay open until 6am if it wants to, but it's pointless because no-one is there. Most local club nights - ours is an exception - filter out dramatically between 2 and 4am. A few people have tried to do legit 'after-hours' at various venues, but they virtually all fail because people either a) pass out early or b)go back to house parties, where the booze is cheap and you can intoxicate yourself with whatever you want without security breathing down your neck. And we live in a so-called party town!

[Matt]

This is certainly the single most frustrating thing about living in Dublin. The unfortunate truth imho is that we are so afraid of ourselves in Ireland we will find it very hard to justify a relaxation or extension of licensing laws. There is an idea that the moral fabric of society is at stake if we progress to something like the UK's licensing laws.

I believe there would be a time of free-fall before people learned that an extension of the laws means it is not a race to drink as much as possible before closing and that it is in the interests of accommodating a potentially very healthy music scene, an increasingly late-working labour force and (most importantly for the country) a more responsible attitude towards alcohol.

[j]

yep completely agree. i think one of the greatest obstacles preventing irish people from doing more than just complain about our draconian licenceing laws is our general apathy towards protest. a boycott, march or strike should be organised

[j]

this fear of people going crazy is ridiculous too, as if we could drink more than we do already. if anything it might teach us to pace ourselves more. i also think people are more likely to take handfuls of drugs in dark rooms with the curtains drawn with worse music than at nightclubs where the atmopshere is more connvivial

[gmos]

one thing that really pisses me off is the lack of drinking up time you get. they're all too willing to take your money right up until closing time, but it seems as soon as you've got your last drink the music's off and some over-aggressive bouncer is herding you out the door. if you actually had an extra half hour or even an hour where they weren't selling booze but you still had music and could dance off some of the alcohol, you'd actually leave the club in a better state.

another problem was when they tinkered with the licensing laws about 4/5 years ago, giving all these super-pubs late licenses, yet at the same time squeezing the nightclubs. now, you can drink 'till the same time or later in a lot of those pubs than a nightclub.

I know what you're saying about the apathy of Irish people though, it's a shame. I did sign that petition btw ;)

[Kenny]

Its even in worse down in cork. 2am for fuck sake. the extra hour i have since moving to dublin is a joy to behold.

And when i was living in germany, i never got particularly more drunk than here anyways. especially if i was staying till the last in the berghain i would barely drink for the last few hours (and there wasnt drugs involved)

[Yoko]

Just curious to know what effect people think loosening the licencing laws would have in Ireland? Surely the drinking problem goes far deeper than club opening hours and the need to drink as quickly as possible. Would lengthening opening hours make the aftermath of Saturday nights any more palatable? Like any techno lover, I'd love to see later opening hours, but in the same breath I'd have concerns regarding how this would result given our immature attitude towards booze. It is great in Berlin the way the clubs have such a music focus and drink/drugs take a supporting roll.

[Yoko]

Just curious to know what effect people think loosening the licencing laws would have in Ireland? Surely the drinking problem goes far deeper than club opening hours and the need to drink as quickly as possible. Would lengthening opening hours make the aftermath of Saturday nights any more palatable? Like any techno lover, I'd love to see later opening hours, but in the same breath I'd have concerns regarding how this would result given our immature attitude towards booze. It is great in Berlin the way the clubs have such a music focus and drink/drugs take a supporting roll.

[Sotek]

Wow, I always thought that parties in Ireland last to wee hours and alcohol is being poured from everywhere ;-) I guess I was wrong on the first one ;-)

NYC is pretty much OK. Bars and clubs must stop selling liquor at 4AM buy they can stay open late. The only thing that sucks is the so-called "cabaret license" -which means that you can't dance in venues unless you (the owner) have this license. It's retarted. And that's how Twilo got screwed, too.

[kenny]

Y'see, thats a pretty basic idea that would help. stop serving at a certain time and let the music play for another couple of hours.

[tiddlerz]

funkin ireland!
if you had asked me in 1996 when i turned 18 would the irish club laws been sorted by now i would have said yeah, of course.
i would have bet my bottle of buckfast on it. over 10 years later and its still the same shit. sad but unfortunately very true. the only explanation i can give for this is that irish politicans are cowards and too afraid to stand up and implement the necessary modern licensing laws which are present even in developing countries and countries which were under the communist yolk (yoke).

[tom/pipecock]

"Y'see, thats a pretty basic idea that would help. stop serving at a certain time and let the music play for another couple of hours."

but it doesnt make sense for the bar/club. they still have to pay staff and they cant make any more money.

its funny to hear anyone complain about 3 AM closing, we get 2am and really people are out before then most of the time. it is some serious bullshit.

[tom/pipecock]

"Y'see, thats a pretty basic idea that would help. stop serving at a certain time and let the music play for another couple of hours."

but it doesnt make sense for the bar/club. they still have to pay staff and they cant make any more money.

its funny to hear anyone complain about 3 AM closing, we get 2am and really people are out before then most of the time. it is some serious bullshit.

[todd]

2am !! that is some serious bullshit, now i appreciate my own city. i'd be protesting everyday or move

[Kenny]

Pipey, they are gonna be there for another couple of hours regardless, and i used to find in the robert johnson in frankfurt that they would sometimes stop serving but the place would carry on. its not the craziest of notions. Actually in the hessen area you get some coinage back when you return your used bottle (in both club and supermarket), means the place aint half as messy too. and if people dont bring em back you'll find one or 2 clubbers who'll go around picking up a bunch of 'em n return them for the cash!

[Sotek]

@pipecock: "but it doesnt make sense for the bar/club. they still have to pay staff and they cant make any more money."

well.. they still serve $8 ($1,50 wholesale)cans of red bull and $6 ($0.25 w/s)bottles of water so there's still money to be made.. at least here in NYC.

[j]

i think this attitude is a residule leftover from before the british left, many, many irish people, didnt bother protesting because, it was said by both the british and the irish that we were unfit to rule ourselves. are we that much of a shower of useless bastards that we cant trust ourselves and need a nanny state to dictate how long we go out for, because its for our own good.

[B]

While it does suck that most NYC bars/clubs stop the drinking at 4am I think there are definitely a few who stay open till 5am-6am and still serve liquor past 4am...I think Sullivan Room, Cielo and Studio B all do this. Also, the NY after-hours techno and house scene is slowly starting to return...Unfortunately its kept extremely hush, hush b/c the cops are so hardcore...Nevertheless I've definitely stayed out at techno nights past 6am in the last few months. After Damian Lazarus/MANDY I stayed at afters till 8am and they definitely kept going even when I left...

[Ronan]

It's not important how many people signed the mandate (though I remember a lot of enthusiasm for it at the time) because the government won't listen to 10000 or however many dance fans half of whom probably don't even vote.

There aren't enough people who care about later opening hours in Ireland for anyone to take action on protests like this.

I was involved with GUTN at the beginning also, there's no doubt everyone involved wanted it to be a success, but you're fighting major forces with something like that, for a minority issue.

Out of interest, who are the "most people" who didn't bother signing the petition?

Did you check the 7000 names or whatever?

[Ronan]

Oh yeah and as for "We Irish don't protest", etc etc...sure we do, there are constant strikes in Ireland.

There are plenty of protests too, but as with other Western capitalist countries, they don't matter a jot.

[j]

protests dont matter a jot

thats the attitude i was talking about

[Sotek]

protests matter a lot. you have to bitch about things and try to make difference. that's how things change.

[mind at large]

3 am? that's closing time for alomst everywhere in america. but we have this special trick called the warehouse rave.